Súraq: Auyldaǵy revolyutsiyalyq ózgeristerdi, jappai tárkileudi, kúshtep újymdastyrudy, otyryqshylandyru, et, astyq daiyndaudy kózdeitin “Qazaqstandaǵy Kishi Qazan” sayasi baǵdarlamasy turaly ne bilesiz? Ol qazaq halqynyń taǵdyryna qalai áser etti? Onyń zorlyq-zombylyqpen júzege asyryluy, qúrǵaqshylyqpen qatar, jappai asharshylyqtyń, májbúrli bosqynǵa úshyratudyń, halyqtyq kóterilister men qarsylyqtardyń jáne t. b. sebebi boldy ma?
Jauap: 1925 jyly jazda respublika basshylyǵyna ortalyq F.I. Goloshekindi jiberdi. Jergilikti jaǵdaimen tanysyp alǵan soń F. Goloshekin I. Stalinge arnaiy hat joldap,onda endigi uaqytta basymdylyq jalpyúlttyq mindetterge emes, qazaq aulyn keńestendiruge, respublika ómirinde kommunisterdiń úles salmaǵyn kúrt arttyruǵa, basqaru apparattaryn jergilektendiruge, yaǵni qazaq búqarasyna qazaqsha qyzmet jasauǵa, sondai- aq úlken sayasatqa emes, qalyń qazaq búqarasynyń kúndelikti múqtajdyqtaryn qanaǵattandyruǵa berilmek ekendigin táptishtep aitty. F Goloshekin úsynǵan «Kishi Qazan» kontseptsiyasy osyndai boldy jáne ol I. Stalinniń tolyq qoldauyn aldy.
Bilep-tósteushilerdiń taǵy bir maqsaty – qazaqty eldik sanadan aiyru. Bai-kulaktardy tap retinde joyu nauqany qarqyn aldy. Últynyń múddesin oilaǵandarǵa «últshyldar», «tap jaulary», «jikshilder», «ońshyldar» degen jala jabyldy.
Kishi Qazan baǵddarlamasy ayasynda shabyndyq jáne egistik jerlerdi qaita bólu arqyly qazaq auylynda maidan ashudan úmittengen keńestik basshylyq búl úmiti aqtalmaǵan soń, jańa auqymdy sharalardy iske asuǵa kiristi. Halyqty otyryqshylandyryp, qazaq bailaryn tárkilep, qazaq últshyldaryn jazalady.
Bolьsheviktik rejim osylaisha qazaq últ azattyq qozǵalysynyń basynda túrǵan ziyalylar tobyn, olar qalyptastyrǵan azattyq ideologiyasyn joiyp tyńdy.
Súraq: 1920-1930 jj. sizdiń otbasyńyz, ata-anańyzdyń, atalaryńyzdyń otbasy tárkileuge úshyrady ma? Sizdiń tuystaryńyzdyń biri qudalau kórdi me? Olardyń aty-jónin, tuǵan jylyn nemese shamamen jasyn, kásibin, túrǵylyqty jerin (oblys, audan, jergilikti jeri, auyl/selonyń nómiri nemese atauy) kórsetińiz?
Jauap: Bizdiń áulet tárkileuge úshyrady. Sol jyldary Meterbai atamyz, Alash ziyalylaryna qoldau kórsetkeni úshin qyzyldardyń qudalauyna úshyrady. Aqyry otbasyn aman alyp qalu maqsatynda Qytai jerine qonys audardy. Biraq qyzyldardyń úzyn qoly, Qytai eline de jetip, batyr babamyzǵa u berip, mert qyldy.
Súraq: Keńestik organdar olardy tárkileu men jer audarudyń qandai kishi sanatyna jatqyzǵan: iri baiǵa, kulakqa, jartylai baiǵa (ortasha), sharuaǵa nemese han, súltan tegine, patsha ákimshiligi qyzmetshisine, alashordashylar qataryna, din qyzmetshisine, kontrrevolyutsionerge?
Jauap: Iri bai jáne Alashordashylar qataryna jatqyzdy.
Súraq: Siz quǵyn-súrginge (repressiyaǵa) úshyraǵan adam turaly qandai málimetter bere alasyz (atyldy; qaida jer audaryldy, túrme nemese eńbekpen túzetu lagerinde boldy ma? jáne t.b.)
Jauap: Quǵyn súrginge úshyraǵan halyqtyn kóbisi jer audarylyp, túrmege nemese eńbekpen túzetu lagerine jiberildi. Qarsylyk kórsetkender atylyp, túǵan tuystary qúǵyn-súrginge úshyrady.
Súraq: Tárkileu, jer audaru nemese qamauǵa alu qandai organdar men úiymdar tarapynan júzege asyrylǵanyn bilesiz be?
Jauap: Ol jaǵyn jaqsy bilmeimin. Biletin úlkenderdiń bári ómirden ótip ketti.
Súraq: Tárkileu kezinde qansha mal jáne tórt túliktiń qandai túrleri tárkilengenin bilesiz be?
Meterbai atamyz bolys bolatyn. Mal múlki kóp, auqatty adam bolǵan. Biraq atamyzdyń ieliginen qansha mal-múlik tárkilengenin tolyq bilmeimin. Biraq újymdastyramyz degen jeleumen Keńes ókimetiniń Qapal-Balasaz áskeri operatsiyasy kezinde jergilikti halyqtan 641 tai-qúnan, 364 túie, 108 búqa, 108 siyr, 603 aiǵyr barlyǵy 5621 maldy tartyp alǵany belgili. Búl esepke alynǵany. Esepke alynbai aidap áketilip jatqany qanshama?
Súraq: Qandai múlik, zattar tárkilendi? Tárkilengen mal men zattar, múlik qaida nemese kimge berildi?
Jauap: Quǵyn-súrgin jyldary bailyqtyń bári tonaldy. Qyrylǵany jolda qyrylyp qaldy da, aman qalǵandary soqa basyn súirep, Qytaiǵa baryp panalady.
Súraq: Quǵyn-súrginge úshyraǵan adamnyń otbasy turaly aityp berińizshi, jasy úlken tuystaryńyz Sizge qandai derekter, málimetter aitty? Eger sizdiń tuysyńyz “tárkilengen” nemese jer audarylǵan bolsa, onda tuysqanyńyzdyń jer audarylǵan uaqytyn (bilseńiz naqty kúnin, naqty kúnin bilmegen jaǵdaida shamamen uaqytyn) aityp ketseńiz. Otbasylyq arhivte saqtalǵan fotosuretter, hattar, anyqtamalar, shaǵymdar nemese basqa da qújattar bar ma?
Jauap: Fotosuretter, qújattar, anyqtamalar saqtalǵan joq.
Súraq: Siz jer audaru kezinde nemese basqa sebeptermen ashtyq pen aurudan qaitys bolǵan eresekter nemese balalar turaly aqparat bilesiz be? Jer audaryldy, kim túrǵylyqty jerinde qaldy. Múmkin Siz otbasynyń bir bóligin túraqty jerde qaldyrudyń sebebin biletin shyǵarsyz (ajyrasu, otbasyn panalaǵan jetim balalar jáne t. b.)?
Jauap: Meterbai atamyz otbasymen birge Qytaiǵa qonys audarǵan bolatyn. Atamyz qyzyldardyn kolynan mert bolyp, sol elde jerlendi. Keiin janúyasy qaita qazaq eline oraldy. Meniń ákemniń ákesi Orynbai atamyz, yaǵni Meterbai bolystyń úly Qytaida tuylǵan bolatyn.
Súraq: Siz quǵyn-súrginge úshyraǵan túlǵalardyń memleket, resmi organdar tarapynan qudalau kórgen balalary men tuysqandary turaly aqparat bilesiz be? Olardyń keiingi taǵdyry qalai boldy? Olar qandai qiynshylyqtar men qasiretti bastarynan ótkerdi?
Jauap: Meterbai bolystyń úrpaǵy Orynbai atamyz elge oralyp, kópjyldar boiy qúrylys salasynda eńbek etip, Jańa qúrylǵan auyldarda mektep salyp, qúrylystyń bas brigadiri boldy. Keiin júmys babymen Almaty qalasyna kelip túraqtalyp, qalanyń biraz ǵimarattaryna restavratsiya júmystaryn júrgizdi. Soǵan orai artynan qalǵan úrpaqtarynyń barlyǵy Almaty qalasynda.
Súraq: Eger Siz jer audaru/jazalau (qamauǵa alu) /atu ornyn bilseńiz, búl turaly aityp ketseńiz. Jerleu ornyn kórsete alasyz ba?
Jauap: Ókinishke orai qúǵyn-súrginge úshyryǵan atamyzdyń qaida jerlengeni belgisiz. Ondai derekter joq.
Súraq: Sotsyz, tergeusiz atylǵan adamdar turaly bilesiz be? Habarsyz joǵalǵan adamdardyń esimderin bilseńiz, olar turaly aqparat aityp ketseńiz.
Jauap: Meterbai bolysqa qastandyq jasalynyp u berip óltirildi.
Súraq: Eger siz jer audarylǵan tuysyńyzdyń bosatylǵan, esepten shyǵarylǵan kúni, aqtau kúni jáne aqtaǵan memlekettik organ turaly aqparat bilseńiz, aityp ketseńiz. Quǵyn-súrginge úshyrap, tiri oralǵan adamnyń keiingi taǵdyry qalai boldy?
Jauap: Memlekettik organ tarapynan aqtalǵan qaǵaz kelgen joq.
Súraq: Quǵyn-súrginge úshyraǵan tuystaryńyz turaly jeke otbasylyq nemese resmi arhivten qandai da bir qújattar (jeke jazbalar, hattar, kúndelikter, ocherkter, tergeu isteri, zertteushilerdiń maqalalary, jariyalanǵan qújattar jinaǵynan alynǵan málimetter jáne t. b.) bar ma?
Jauap: Ondai qújattar joq.
Súraq: Eger sizdiń tuystaryńyz KAKSR/KSRO-dan shetelderge qashyp ketse, onda olardyń úrpaqtary qaida túrady? Olardyń sheteldegi taǵdyry turaly bilesiz be? Aityp ketseńiz. Olar Qazaqstanǵa qaita oraldy ma? Qai uaqytta qaityp keldi?
Jauap: Joǵaryda aitqandai, Meterbai bolys úrpaqtary ákeleri qaza tapqan soń, elge oraldy. Halyqqa qyzmet etip, aldymen Jarkent ońirinde qyzmet jasap, keiin Almaty qalasynda túraqtaldy.
Súraq: Sizdiń ata-babalaryńyz resmi bilik tarapynan (keńestik kezeńde nemese QR Táuelsizdik jyldarynda) aqtaldy ma?
Jauap: «Aqtaldy» degen qaǵaz alǵanymyz joq.
Súraq: Repressiyaǵa úshyraǵan tuystaryńyzǵa qatysty aqtau jáne jáne máńgilik este qaldyru boiynsha oilaryńyz ben úsynystaryńyzdy aityp ketseńiz.
Jauap: Bizdiń atalarymyz qazaq egemendigi úshin kúres júrgizdi. Qanshamasy azappen óltirilip, mert boldy. Babalarymyzdyń jasaǵan eńbegi men kúresi úshin, keler úrpaq bilip júrip úmytpas úshin «Quǵyn-súrgin qúrbandary » atty sharalardyń ótui tiis dep oilaimyn.
Súraq: Kóptegen kózi ashyq, bilimdi bailardyń últ-azattyq qozǵalysqa, «Alash» partiyasyna qarjylai qoldau kórsetkeni belgili. Búl úshin olardyń ústinen qylmystyq ister qozǵalyp, qylmystyq jauapkershilikke tartyldy, olardyń maldary men basqa da múlikteri tárkilendi jáne taratyldy. Jer audaryldy. Siz osyndai faktilerdi bilesiz be? Bilseńiz, osy bir quǵyn-súrgin qúrbandary aqtaldy ma?
Jauap: Olar jaily kóp bilmeimin.
Súraq: Bailar, ortashalar erekshe qatygezdikpen qudalandy. Óitkeni olar bai, kulaktardy tap retinde joyu turaly odaqtyq zańnamaǵa sáikes qosymsha qudalandy. Eger iri bailar ústinen qylmystyq ister qozǵalyp, kem degende keibir protsessualьdyq ister júrgizilse, al jartylai bailar, ortashalar tipti zańsyz qamauǵa alyndy. Olar shartty sheshimder jáne partiya komitetterimen birlesip OGPU men militsiya organdary qúrastyrǵan auyldyq okrugterdiń, audandyq atqaru komitetteriniń tizimderi boiynsha qamauǵa alyndy. Olar eshqandai sanktsiyasyz, eshqandai sotsyz birneshe ai boiy tergeu izolyatorlarynda, oblys ortalyqtary men qalalardyń túrmelerinde ústaldy, onda keibireuler aurudan, ashtyqtan qaitys boldy. Auyldyq okrugterdiń sheshimderimen jer audarylǵan bailar, moldalar men basqa da auyldaǵy bedeldi, elge yqpaldy adamdardy qart kisilerdiń aituynsha OGPU, militsiya qyzmetkerleri jaqyn mańdaǵy jasyryn jerlerge aparyp atqany turaly jaǵdailar da anyqtaldy.
Jauap: Ondai aqparat bilmeimin.
Súraq: Bailar OGPU men militsiya organdarynyń baqylauymen ózge óńirlerge nemese Qazaqstannyń tys jerlerge jer audaryldy. Keibir oblystarda ashyq aspan astynda tikendi symmen qorshalǵan “bai qala” degen qúrylyp, onda tárkilengennen soń jer audarylatyn orny anyqtalǵanǵa deiin bailardyń otbasy músheleri ústaldy. Siz ózińiz túratyn óńirde osyndai faktilerdi bilesiz be? Búl másele óńirlik komissiyalar basshylyǵynyń erekshe baqylauyna alyndy ma? Aimaqtyq komissiyalar men olardyń júmys toptarynyń músheleri osy qújattardy izdeu jáne zertteu úshin audandarǵa bardy ma? Osy bir óte mańyzdy júmysqa audandyq, qalalyq jáne oblystyq arhivterdiń jauapty jáne qúzyretti qyzmetkerleri júmyldyrylǵan ba? Árbir óńir boiynsha tárkilengen, túrǵylyqty jerinen jer audarylǵan bailardyń, ortashalardyń sany anyqtaldy ma?
Jauap: Ol turaly jaqsy bilmeimin.
Súraq: Ǵalymdardyń aituynsha, ortasha dáuletti adamdardy tárkileu turaly materialdar, auyldyq (auyldyq) okrugterdiń olardy jer audaru jáne qamauǵa alu turaly sheshimderi jáne basqa da qújattar audandyq arhivterde, eger berilse (oblysqa) – oblystyq arhivterde saqtalady. Óńirlik komissiyalardyń júmys toptary músheleri osy qújattardy izdep, jáne anyqtap, zerdeledi me?
Jauap: Ol kisilerge qatysty ister ashyq derek kózderinen tabu qiyn. Sondyqtan qúpiya qújattardan qarastyru kerek.
Súraq: Sizdiń óńirde tárkileuge úshyraǵan bailar, ortashalar, sharualardyń qanshasy aqtalmaǵan?
Jauap: Ondai aqparat bilmeimin.
Súraq: Prezidenttiń Jarlyǵyn tolyqqandy iske asyru úshin, Sizdiń pikirińizshe, sayasi quǵyn-súrgin qúrbandaryn tolyq zańdy jáne sayasi aqtau úshin memlekettik organdar men júrtshylyq qandai qosymsha sharalar qabyldauy tiis? Sayasi quǵyn-súrgin qúrbandaryn, onyń ishinde Qazaqstannyń bostandyǵy, táuelsizdigi jáne aumaqtyq tútastyǵy úshin kúreste erlik kórsetkenderdi halyq jadynda qaldyru maqsatynda ázirlenip jatqan memlekettik baǵdarlama úshin óz úsynystaryńyzdy berińiz (Jarlyqtyń 5-p. 2-t.).
Jauap: Újymdastyruǵa qarsy kóterilistiń bolǵanyn, kóterilisshilerdi stalinshilderdiń ayausyz qyrǵanyn halyq bilui kerek. Mektep, joǵary oqu ornyna arnalǵan oqulyqtarda, batyrlarymyzdyń erligi jazylyp, ataluy tiis. Sebebi, olar mal-múlikti talan-tarajǵa saluǵa qarsylyq bildirgen, aqyry sońynda kóterilisten túk shyqpaitynyn bilip, el-júrtty aman alyp qalu úshin shet el asyryp, basyn báigege tikken batyrlar edi.
Súhbattasqan: Ibraiymjanov Qali Túrdyǵazyúly.
Súhbat bergen: Meterbai bolystyń úrpaǵy, Meterbaev Auelьbek Maratúly. Almaty oblysy, Ile audany, Yntymaq auyly Erǵali Músaev kóshesi, № 72 úi
